Mail Starting 6/19/98
11 messages, ending 7/15/98
Last modified: 7/24/98
This section is in chronological order, since it is being released as one piece.
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From: Mary Utt
Date: 6/19/98
Subject: RE: Gender neutrality (again)
> I have added your mail to the latest Mail section.
> I hope others appreciate it as much as I do! Thanks for the repeated input.
Thank *you*! You know, getting this acknowledgement sent me back
to the site. Have you thought of automating notifications of mail
postings/new stuff/etc to keep us all coming back? (So many websites,
so little time...) Ziff-Davis does this (http://www.zdnet.com/anchordesk/)
and I don't find it intrusive at all -- if it sounds interesting and I
have time, I go there; otherwise, I hit 'delete.'
...
Cheers,
Mary
Good idea. There is now a Good Documents mailing list. To sign up, go to the mailing list sign up page, linked to from the News page. -DanB
From: David M. Rupp
Date: 6/19/98
Subject: InformationWeek June 8 Web Site of the Week
This column made IW look foolish and your web site not quite up to
snuf. I attempted to access your site using a non-frames based web
browser, there are still 1000's out there around the world, but got no
image other than 3 little's X's where the frame would have gone. A good
web site would negotiate the accessing browser's http parameters and
adjust to what the browser could handle(ie: Java disabled, don't accept
cookies, no frames, no images, language of preference...)
I will still see what goodies you have, but this looked weak for a first
access. :-(
Regards,
Dave Rupp
>>>> Dan replied and Dave responded to the reply: <<<<
Dan,
Thanks for the reply. I did send an e-mail to both you folks and IW. My
comments are inserted below.
On Mon, 22 Jun 1998 18:53:15 -0400, Daniel Bricklin wrote:
>I'm sorry if you couldn't read the site with all the stuff turned off. The few percent of people who can't read it because we only write one way (with frames), I feel, is made up for in the extra time I can put into writing new material for those that can read it. It's an informational site, and it is trying to be like an intranet, not an internet site.
--->The few percent really depends on where your viewers are located. For
instance in the PAC RIM 70% of our PC's are 386 technology. That is not a
few percent.
We have responded to requests and made the site more friendly to "graphics
off", but frames (with all pages bookmarkable!) are part of the site design
and navigation and the philosophy it puts forth (mixing scrolling and
non-scrolling is one of the things the screen can do that paper can't do to
make up for the things paper can do that the screen can't do).
--->You will lose your 28.8k modem customers with too many and too large
image files. We, web developers/programmers, can't live in a glass house
with dedicated 10M or even 100M LAN connections to our data and forget about
the lower speed connections or even lower end workstations. I went thought
the same thing back in the early/mid 80's with IBM 3270 screen images were
some of our programmers put in great new gee wiz screen options, but our
business partners' 3270 stations or s/w emulator couldn't handle. We lost
business, real dollars, because of this.
>
>The site was designed for the people implementing content for an office intranet, not the general internet, and we had to set the baseline somewhere. We set it at Netscape 2.0 and IE 3.0 and above in their default settings.
>
>Why do you turn everything off? Is there no value in images, frames, etc.? Is it because you run into some stuff implemented poorly? See (with a frames enabled browser!) our section on "When (and how) to use frames" (http://www.gooddocuments.com/Techniques/whenframes.htm) which includes discussions of why people like and dislike frames.
--->Why do I turn off stuff?? Well, images are covered above, although at
work I have a dedicated 10M LAN connection with well over a DS3 WAN
connection to the Internet, because of modem connections. Frame wise, yes I
have seen poorly written frame enabled sites where I actually could not
navigate and as you mention in your next paragraph I really don't care for
them that much.
May be a bias based on early(bad) frame enabled sites.
>
>Apparently, InformationWeek found the site worthwhile when they actually read it, and don't find it necessary to flag sites as "warning: uses frames". But...other reviewers have said to US that they like it even though they generally don't like frames, but they don't always point that out to readers, maybe you should tell them to.
>
>I hope you like the site when you finally see it as it was meant to be read. Thanks for trying to go further.
>
>-DanB
--->Closing comment(s)... My real point was to make sure the folks who
develop web pages and back end web programs(Java, JavaSrcipt, cgi's, etc...)
consider the poor end user. The underlying http handshake can make or break
how you look to the user. What about handling language of preference? The
web server admin and web developers need to communicate. If I find a good
e-mail from a guy who explained some web server options to me I'll forward
it. I thought I knew quit a bit about configuring web servers(have config'd
IBM ICSS on their mainframe, EMWAC on NT, Netscape on NT, Apache on NT &
Solaris, GoServe of OS/2).
As I mentioned before the server and web head need to talk. Configuring the
web server properly and building html well will allow one piece of html to
service an Intranet or the world of the Internet to the fullest extent.
Soap box off. :-)
L8R,
Dave...
Dave later mailed a more detailed discussion of CERN web server options that is posted here separately, since it is long and technical about servers.
From: Lewis Valentine
Date: 6/23/98
Subject: no ui info
I just visited your site, I liked it and it provided a lot of good
information.
There is one thing that it seems to be missing though.
I don't see any individual document interface techniques discussed.
A good example is the use of Capital letters. Many people use all
capitals to get their point across.
Not only is all capitals bad nettiquette, it is been proven to be harder
to read.
For example:
ALL CAPITALS REMOVE THE NEEDED WHITE SPACE FROM TEXT THAT HELPS OUR EYES
RELAX WHILE READING TEXT.
All capitals remove the needed white space from text that helps our eyes
relax while reading text.
The first sentence, probably took you longer to read than the second
even though they say the same thing.
Besides, it makes the screen look busy and is more likely to make
readers not come back.
This is one example, there are probably a lot more. Things like fonts
selection and size.
Does anybody else have other examples? -DanB
From: Ecker, Toni
Date: 6/23/98
Subject: more on style
I enjoyed looking through your site and seeing quite a bit of information which seems to be common sense, but seemingly ignored by many developers. I would like to see some more information on page design using textures and fonts, i.e. which colors are easier to read contrasted against what. Are textures suitable when the main reason for the site is information, are there times when there should be a solid background and no texture? What size and types of fonts are easiest to read? I did get the piece on BOLD, but some further details would be useful.
I know you may not have all the answers or have time to pass them along, but I would appreciate it if you could point me in the right direction to finding this information.
Thank you,
toni.ecker
Any suggestions? -DanB
From: Irina Piven
Date: 6/26/98
Subject: A question about using frames
You've done an excellent job in documenting frames! I do have a
question, however. I have the exact problem that you described - I use
frames and when the user selects a link in the frame on the left side,
the URL in the Address/Location toolbar does not change. I read your
explanation of how to fix this problem and I am still lost. You suggest
using the TARGET="_top" tag, but if that's used the frames opens in a
full size window that only has one side. I would like to use this
technique, but my requirement is such that the frame on the left side
must always list all the available links (kind of like a table of
contents).
I would really appreciate any help you can give me. Thank you.
Irina Piven
When you use the TARGET="_top", you need the HREF to point to a separate frameset for each page, like I did in the main example sample. The frameset can refer to the same file within the left frame, and a different one for the right one (the example has the navigation in the bottom frame, but it is the same idea). The separate frameset is the key. At that point, it is helpful to use a different file in the left frame, too, so that you can give "You are here" indication like the sample, but it does add one hit to the server.
-DanB
Response:
Thank you so much for your help. I got it to work.
I wanted to let you know that I looked through several HTML books in
hopes of fixing this "flaw" with frames and your site was the only one
that provided a solution.
Thanks again for your help!
Irina Piven
From: Stephen Barner
Date: 6/27/98
Subject: Typos
Thank you for putting together such an informative and useful site. I teach
a high school journalism course and have been incorporating information on
online publishing. I will very likely use your site as a resource for this
class.
On the downside, I noticed several typographic errors in your site,
especially in the first half as one progresses through. I am sure that it
would help if I had recorded where these errors occur, but alas, I did not.
I suggest you have someone read through the pages carefully, as it is a
little odd to have a writing primer contain simple errors.
Thanks again for your efforts,
*********************************
Stephen Barner
(Also, a similar letter from Marty Ortiz 7/6/98.)
Slowly but surely, I'll get them fixed. Sorry.
This is getting embarrassing, but that's what you've got to tolerate when writing is your main concern and the extra effort and time to have others check your work gets in the way of timeliness for an Intranet. Intranet writers will need to balance typos with time, just as EMail users do (note that I do not fix typos in incoming EMail). -DanB
From: Frances McKenzie
Date: 6/29/98
Subject: absolute font sizes
I've been paying a lot of attention lately to font sizes since I am
developing style sheets for our intranet.
I notice that your pages contain code such as
<FONT SIZE= 2 COLOR="#000000" FACE="Arial" >
My understanding is that "3" is the size for normal font. What displays
depends on the user's browser preference settings. Since "2" is smaller
than "3", it makes the body text more difficult to read (smaller).
People set their normal font preference for a reason (readability). Making
on-screen text smaller just adds more pain to a medium which is already
difficult to read.
Your content has a lot to offer! Please continue to add to your site.
"2" usually corresponds to 10 point type (newly installed browser defaults). I specified 10 point Arial when writing, so Trellix set the HTML to "2".-DanB
From: Steve LeBlanc
Date: 7/10/98
Subject: great site
Very ambitious. And very brave to let them tear it apart that way. I enjoyed the fact that
you wanted to do it and that people will find it. It might be nice to automate an easy way
for people to edit and review a new site. Some people just love to critique and will do it for
free.
Thanks for doing it.
--
=================================================
The beginning of wisdom is a definition of terms. - Socrates
-----
Steve LeBlanc
Getting input from readers is very important, even if it hurts. -DanB
From: G. David Atkins
Date: 7/12/98
Subject: Compliment & Suggestion.
Compliment;
Great site, great information and great fun...Thank you and please keep
up the good work.
Suggestion;
Text columns read best when width is constant.
When reading longer articles, I adjust my browser width to produce a
comfortable (usually pretty narrow) text column width. The Good
Documents site switches the right frame on and off between pages/links
which in turn keeps changing the text column width. The text width
changes are irritating and therefore reduce reading ease and pleasure,
both of which are counter productive to good visual communications.
Thanks,
G. David Atkins (A Trellix user)
Good observation -- column width is important. I'll try to address it more on a redesign. (Trellix 2.0 having tables will make this all easier.) -DanB
From: Dedic Jeremy
Date: 7/14/98
Subject: great site ... one suggestion
Great content! UIE and UseIt leave me hungry for quality resources like
yours. Thanks for sparing me the disappointment of sites like www.holtz.com
and www.usableweb.com. Keep up the great work.
One topic I'm always surprised to find missing from web usability resources
like yours is some discussion of serif vs. san serif font usage for online
publications. Maybe there's talk of this on your site, but I can't seem to
find it there or anywhere on the net. The only dialogue or research info I
find regarding font-related readability and legibility issues are for
printed matter. I hope you'll tackle this topic in the future or point me
to any good resources you know of that address this terribly-neglected
issue.
Thanks.
Jeremy Dedic
Anybody know of any good resources on this? Serif is known to be better if there is enough resolution (since, among other things, there is more distinction between characters) but at more normal screen point sizes, not anti-aliased, I don't know, either. -DanB
From: Christine Booker
Date: 7/15/98
Subject: Great site
I just discovered your site, and will be emailing the URL to numerous
web designing friends.
I would like to suggest that *I* would like the site better if each page
contained a site table of contents. I enjoy being able to determine when
I'm done with a page and go to another spot without having to hit "Back"
or the Home Page link and then choose my next selection. I think it aids
"skimming" a site for what it is you want to read.
I always include this feature on the sites I design (currently the
University of Washington Department of Surgery Intranet). I'm sure you
know what it looks like, but here is an example page from one of my
sites in case you don't: http://weber.u.washington.edu/~cves/
Thanks for the great resource!
CB
Another vote for changing the sidebar design. Does anybody find the current content helpful? Since there isn't room for too much material, I need to know what to put there. -DanB